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| < Science ~ Alien Invasion not what we expect. |
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Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:30 pm
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Mentor
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Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:57 am
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Talking in a serious scientific context, we must admit the high probability of the existence of ET life forms with equal or even higher intelligence, somewhere in the universe.
However, given the scientific facts we know (less the relativistic wanton fiction), there is no practical method for any life form with any finite life time interval, that can travel the incredible distances between galaxies with any resources to support such a life form at any practical speed to go anywhere close to an insignificant distance in comparison.
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Hemetis |
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Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:18 pm
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| HEMETIS wrote: |
| However, given the scientific facts we know (less the relativistic wanton fiction), there is no practical method for any life form with any finite life time interval, that can travel the incredible distances between galaxies |
At the moment, and for humans, this is true. But maybe we should look at the idea of cryogenics. We already use cryogenics on Earth to store sperm and egg cells etc. If we assume that there are are more intelligent life forms, then it's reasonable to assume that these life forms have more advanced cryogenic technology, thus allowing them to 'freeze' space travellers while they travel across galactic distances.
A (possibly) more realistic approach is that the life form has cryogenic technology comparable to ours, and, like us, can store reproductive cells for long amounts of time. These cells can be sent across galaxies and then, using robotics, 'thaw' the cells and fuse them to create new life forms, in a form of test-tube baby. These new babies could then be born and grow up as the craft approaches its destination and learn about their history using on-board computers.
I'm no expert on biotechnology or robotics, but to me anyway the latter idea seems most plausible; even with only a couple of advancements in our technology (i.e. craft propulsion and AI), this method of galactic and intergalactic travel could be achieved by humans in the very near future. However, although this is intergalactic travel, it is basic. A technolgy advance after this might allow fully-grown life forms to be 'frozen' (as in the first scenario) and travel such large distances. This particular technology, I feel, will come soon after reproductive cells are flung across the galaxy. But further advancements, such as hyperdrives (allowing non-frozen beings to travel in relatively short lengths of time) and such the like are still a long way off.
Conor |
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Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:59 pm
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Of course what you say is very reasonable now, but not some ten billion years ago.
You see, there is a universal time age that allows for us to emerge and evolve.
ET aliens too require that long time to come to be from similar materials in the same universe.
This means that an alien arrival now is also impossible because such extremely advanced technology should have been available before sending them over here where we were not yet.
Think about it in totality and not in parts.
We (including earth) were not here (where we are) for any ancient alien intelligence to send explorers to us long a go to reach us today across billions of light years assuming that they can travel at half the speed of light.
What is their power source that will never be depleted to keep them frozen or to keep dodging gravitational interactions for billions of years?
So, the vehicle is impossible, and its power supply is impossible and we were not here when such an impossible mission was directed at the nonexistent us when such a technology was impossible as a requirement of the age of the universe.
The conclusion is screaming FALSE.
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Hemetis |
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Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:02 pm
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| conor wrote: |
| I'm no expert on biotechnology or robotics, but to me anyway the latter idea seems most plausible; even with only a couple of advancements in our technology (i.e. craft propulsion and AI), this method of galactic and intergalactic travel could be achieved by humans in the very near future. However, although this is intergalactic travel, it is basic. A technolgy advance after this might allow fully-grown life forms to be 'frozen' (as in the first scenario) and travel such large distances. This particular technology, I feel, will come soon after reproductive cells are flung across the galaxy. But further advancements, such as hyperdrives (allowing non-frozen beings to travel in relatively short lengths of time) and such the like are still a long way off. |
The author of the site uses an ingenious method that I haven't seen anywhere else. It uses solar sails but to propel small nanoships! Theoretically such a system could approach some whole integer percent the speed of light. It then uses quantum entanglement to communicate real-time with the space probes. So while the ships do take a while to get to the furthest fringes of the galaxy closer stars can be reached in decades. Combine that with such ships would be so inexpensive and can be made on the scale of trillions! If the civilization lasts a million years and the ships can attain 10% c then they would have conquered the galaxy.  |
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Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:09 pm
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| HEMETIS wrote: |
Of course what you say is very reasonable now, but not some ten billion years ago.
You see, there is a universal time age that allows for us to emerge and evolve.
ET aliens too require that long time to come to be from similar materials in the same universe.
This means that an alien arrival now is also impossible because such extremely advanced technology should have been available before sending them over here where we were not yet.
Think about it in totality and not in parts. |
Our existence could have happened a 100 million years ago considering that from the australopithecine to modern man is a mere 6 million years!
| Quote: |
We (including earth) were not here (where we are) for any ancient alien intelligence to send explorers to us long a go to reach us today across billions of light years assuming that they can travel at half the speed of light. |
Our galaxy is a mere 100,000 light years across with billions of stars. ET need not be outside our galactic neighborhood.
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What is their power source that will never be depleted to keep them frozen or to keep dodging gravitational interactions for billions of years?
So, the vehicle is impossible, and its power supply is impossible and we were not here when such an impossible mission was directed at the nonexistent us when such a technology was impossible as a requirement of the age of the universe.
The conclusion is screaming FALSE. |
The ability to harness ZPE would change that conclusion to a screaming POSSIBLE!  |
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Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:17 pm
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Please show some time-arithmetic.
You need to add the time of our information reaching them fully advanced technologically, then they should prepare the missions and send them to us. This two-way light year distance is practically crippling.
We can dream of going somewhere somehow, but we cannot be serious on assuming ET alien arrival.
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Hemetis |
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Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:07 pm
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| HEMETIS wrote: |
Of course what you say is very reasonable now, but not some ten billion years ago.
You see, there is a universal time age that allows for us to emerge and evolve.
ET aliens too require that long time to come to be from similar materials in the same universe.
This means that an alien arrival now is also impossible because such extremely advanced technology should have been available before sending them over here where we were not yet. |
Ah yes. That's a very good point. 
| HEMETIS wrote: |
| What is their power source that will never be depleted to keep them frozen or to keep dodging gravitational interactions for billions of years? |
Why does one need a power source to keep cold? The background coldenss of space would be very sufficient, I think, to keep anything cold.
Considering the sources of gravitational interference will most probably stars, then why not utilise stellar energy to power the craft to keep the cryogenic facilities cold? And also, why not use the energy to allow the craft to alter course to move away from such bodies?
One thing to remember is that galaxies are mostly empty space. It's very possible to fire a probe through a galaxy and have it emerge the other side without having met any stars.
A voyage may not also take billions of years; assuming the advancements in propulsion are there, a trip to a star this side of the galaxy won't take billions of years. (Don't have numbers on me now, but will take the time later to work out time taking into account relativistic effects.)
Although it may not be possible to do such a distant voyage in an efficient manner, it will nonetheless be possible to perform some sort of voyage in the near future. |
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Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:43 pm
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Joined: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 94
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| HEMETIS wrote: |
Please show some time-arithmetic.
You need to add the time of our information reaching them fully advanced technologically, then they should prepare the missions and send them to us. This two-way light year distance is practically crippling.
We can dream of going somewhere somehow, but we cannot be serious on assuming ET alien arrival. |
The scenario is not that there is contact between civilizations prior to traveling to distant stars with life but that in the process of exploration of the galaxy with nanoships ET stubbles across intelligent life. |
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Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:26 pm
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Moderator
Joined: Jun 21, 2005
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A character Charles Barkley on a Star Trek The Next
Generation episode was programmed by an alien probe
to take the enterprise out to the edge of the universe
where an advanced race learned about the human race
and we learned from them. They would not do the
traveling to us so they made it possible for us to travel
to them!
As soon as we have the technology to sail to the stars
we might start sending out our own probes. It's not
likely that we would run into intelligent life on accident
any time soon. We would have to send out unmanned
probes to make that practical.
I know it won't be in my lifetime but somehow I look
forward to sailing to the stars!!!  |
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Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:44 am
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Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 158
Location: Egypt
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| Frankinstien wrote: |
| The scenario is not that there is contact between civilizations prior to traveling to distant stars with life but that in the process of exploration of the galaxy with nanoships ET stubbles across intelligent life. |
Ah, and in that case I might agree that all the fiction about the greys and creatures invading earth is nothing but fantasy emerging from paranoia and instinctive fears of the unknown.
If such ET alien exploration devices encountered us like our Martian probes getting caught unexpectedly by unexpected Martians, then it should be on the global news with festivals and published scientific responses and not UFO ambiguous reports plus no-ending fiction and fantasy.
The only thing I strongly agree with you about here is that nano-technology is a key to the future stage of technology that will reduce the costs of space exploration by us. While ET "nano-ship" stumbling across our intelligent species must have had a pre-programmed algorithm to try to communicate. Such an advanced technology comes with equally advanced minds that must understand that making enemies provokes destructive wars, while making friends across galaxies must have a fantastic value for them as much as it is for us.
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Hemetis |
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Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:03 am
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Joined: Jun 21, 2005
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| HEMETIS wrote: |
Ah, and in that case I might agree that all the fiction about the greys and creatures invading earth is nothing but fantasy emerging from paranoia and instinctive fears of the unknown.
If such ET alien exploration devices encountered us like our Martian probes getting caught unexpectedly by unexpected Martians, then it should be on the global news with festivals and published scientific responses and not UFO ambiguous reports plus no-ending fiction and fantasy.
The only thing I strongly agree with you about here is that nano-technology is a key to the future stage of technology that will reduce the costs of space exploration by us. While ET "nano-ship" stumbling across our intelligent species must have had a pre-programmed algorithm to try to communicate. Such an advanced technology comes with equally advanced minds that must understand that making enemies provokes destructive wars, while making friends across galaxies must have a fantastic value for them as much as it is for us. |
I’ll agree that Ufology is a farce. But as to whether or not ET would make contact that is another completely different issue. If ET would make contact that would prevent it from doing good science. I mean what do you think they should say to us “Greetings earthlings we would like to conduct experiments on some of you. Not all of you just a good size population so we can get a feel of what is human life.” Even if we were extremely advanced ET may still not want to make contact. Consider the biased perspective we have of ourselves. We would lack what ET would want which is an objective perspective of humanity and all life on earth. ET can’t get the information it wants by making contact. It actually makes less sense to expect an ET arrival that results in contact. If an ET does make contact then look out it needs something from us that it can’t just take. Start looking out for the battle cruiser that’s hunting those renegades and hope they don’t think we’re their allies!
This just makes for another argument of why Star Trek spaceships will not be the future of interstellar space exploration. Tiny is invisible, seamless and that is what you would want when you do discover intelligent life.  |
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