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| < Science ~ Did the Big Bang really happen? |
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Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:56 am
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Mentor
Joined: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 94
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There’s a recent article in Newscientist.com regarding speculation that the Big Bang theory is wrong. I didn’t subscribe to the new service so I don’t know exactly what the article claims. But I did a little research on google and found an interesting article of an individual that is claiming that COBE’s measurements refute the Big Bang theory. So I did a little research on COBE and discovered that in fact COBE confirms the Big Bang with over whelming evidence of the CBMR. The links below are the sites I reviewed.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bang.html
http://lambda.gsfc.nasa.gov/product/cobe/
http://aether.lbl.gov/www/projects/cobe/
Its really funny how so many individuals try to use conspiracy theories to give credence to their theories. |
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Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:08 am
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Expert
Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 158
Location: Egypt
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Are you saying that it does not bother you that the original claim is that all the matter of the universe was confined into a dimensionless singular point!
Are you saying that it fine to neglect the gravitational power of matter and allow such incredible mass to expand out rather than fall in like assumed to happen with black holes that are predicted by the same theory that predicts the big bang!
I have witnessed the age of Sofia-Phobia and ill-logic, but I wished to have been dead long before.
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Hemetis |
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| Posted:
Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:34 am
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Mentor
Joined: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 94
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| HEMETIS wrote: |
Are you saying that it does not bother you that the original claim is that all the matter of the universe was confined into a dimensionless singular point!
Are you saying that it fine to neglect the gravitational power of matter and allow such incredible mass to expand out rather than fall in like assumed to happen with black holes that are predicted by the same theory that predicts the big bang!
I have witnessed the age of Sofia-Phobia and ill-logic, but I wished to have been dead long before. |
Matter can change states and have very strand properties for example Bose-Einstein condensates which can occupy a single point. So too can photons, so an entire universe of matter, virtual or otherwise, can be confined to a single dimensionless point. |
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Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:54 am
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Expert
Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 158
Location: Egypt
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A dreamful point of view can hold even more than that.
But what is the point in assuming the possibility of the impossible as if it was possible if there was no practical merit in doing so!
Sophistry and the consumption of the time of audience is not of my taste or the way I wish to live my life.
There is a statistic by American studies that the USA is harbouring the greatest degree of bullshitting in the world. This range begins by the president of the USA himself and down to bar-fight morons.
Most of the countries that are advanced technologically but failed to increase its degree of civility equally are suffering from the Bull-Shit-Syndrome.
They were taught that the impossible is possible if we insisted enough and repeated any lie to make it true.
Tell yourself that a 9mm bullet can occupy the same space of your brain as many times as you wish then point a 9mm gun to your brain and pull the trigger.
The world's count of bull-shit-proponents become x-1. 
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Hemetis |
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| Posted:
Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:57 pm
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Mentor
Joined: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 94
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| HEMETIS wrote: |
Tell yourself that a 9mm bullet can occupy the same space of your brain as many times as you wish then point a 9mm gun to your brain and pull the trigger.
The world's count of bull-shit-proponents become x-1. |
Well photons can occupy the same space at the same time; this is not bull-shit. Thinking of the big bang as a product of a primordial blackhole that was a product of a universe that had contracted is no longer the view today. Considering that the majority of particles from quantum vacuum energy are photons then a coincidence wave of ZPE massive enough to be a universe could consolidate to a single point or very close to it. Such an event I would consider rare but when considering eternity then such an event is inevitable.
As to what happens to matter as it is compressed towards a singularity of a dimensionless point; IMHO is not outlandish to consider that matter's metamorphic character could transform into a special kind of photon. Such photons could have very unique characteristics such as Faster than Light capabilities. Even without FTL photons ordinary photons could escape a blackhole through quantum mechanical tunneling. So blackholes are not the death of matter as relativity would predict.
I don't think that my perspective is wishful thinking considering that there are plenty of examples where matter does indeed transform itself...  |
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| Posted:
Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:52 pm
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Moderator
Joined: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 274
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| Frankinstien wrote: |
| There’s a recent article in Newscientist.com regarding speculation that the Big Bang theory is wrong. |
The problem with the Big Bang is its singularity.
That would be an infinitely dense lump of mass.
It would have an infinite gravity or space-time
curvature. By GR that would make the Big Bang
a Black Hole and there would be no possibility of
expansion. I don't believe in black holes so the
Big Bang's gravity is not a problem for me.
I believe matter was created in a nonsingular way.
With the original energy buildup of the Big Bang
creating matter spread out with a finite density.
That way the gravity is not infinite and there
is the possibility of expansion/inflation.
That is the way I say it started!
But do you really think a mindless lump created
the universe? |
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Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:09 pm
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Mentor
Joined: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 94
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| Nick wrote: |
The problem with the Big Bang is its singularity.
That would be an infinitely dense lump of mass.
It would have an infinite gravity or space-time
curvature. By GR that would make the Big Bang
a Black Hole and there would be no possibility of
expansion. |
But QM predicts that matter can escape a black hole.
| Quote: |
But do you really think a mindless lump created
the universe? |
Yes... |
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| Posted:
Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:12 pm
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Moderator
Joined: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 274
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| Frankinstien wrote: |
| Nick wrote: |
The problem with the Big Bang is its singularity.
That would be an infinitely dense lump of mass.
It would have an infinite gravity or space-time
curvature. By GR that would make the Big Bang
a Black Hole and there would be no possibility of
expansion. |
But QM predicts that matter can escape a black hole.
| Quote: |
But do you really think a mindless lump created
the universe? |
Yes... |
You can't get the universe out of that frank.
After all where would the original singular matter
escape to? There's no where for it to go since
the space-time would be singular to!
No. There is no such thing as a mass singularity
or infinite gravity.
How does the primordial egg divide frank? |
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| Posted:
Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:33 pm
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Mentor
Joined: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 94
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| Nick wrote: |
| You can't get the universe out of that frank. |
Sure you can.
| Quote: |
After all where would the original singular matter
escape to? There's no where for it to go since
the space-time would be singular to! |
Here you are making no sense since matter escaping a blackhole would be a form of expansion.
| Quote: |
No. There is no such thing as a mass singularity
or infinite gravity. |
Well there are blackholes and even under the influence of infinite gravity QM predicts matter will escape. Matter is a lot like the cartoon character the "Road Runner". Just when the coyote has the road runner cornered with all the rules of physics the rules change!
| Quote: |
How does the primordial egg divide frank? |
Very easily...just as a photon can transform into a electron and positron. Nick you need to read up on QM... |
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| Posted:
Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:17 pm
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Moderator
Joined: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 274
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If there's no space-time yet where will the matter escape to?
How does the primoridial egg divide?
How does a mindless lump create the universe?
If light was the orignal energy buildup at the Big Bang
your mass would be half matter and half antimatter
and it would all be in one place. Not possible.
Like I said you can't get the universe out of that!
I believe that there are no black holes but
there is an extreme of gravity of which we
are oberving at the center of all galaxies.
You don't have any real answers frank.
I can see that.
May I point out to you it is better to know
that you don't know for sure than to go on
believing that you are "certain."
And your QM is fudge.  |
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| Posted:
Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:00 am
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Mentor
Joined: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 94
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| Nick wrote: |
If there's no space-time yet where will the matter escape to?
How does the primoridial egg divide?
How does a mindless lump create the universe?
If light was the orignal energy buildup at the Big Bang
your mass would be half matter and half antimatter
and it would all be in one place. Not possible.
Like I said you can't get the universe out of that! |
Nick we're running into that heap of what you call your brain. Matter and anti matter is exactly what QM predicts but as usual Nick your lack of education always leads you down that path of "dah no it's not!"
| Quote: |
You don't have any real answers frank.
I can see that.
May I point out to you it is better to know
that you don't know for sure than to go on
believing that you are "certain."
And your QM is fudge. |
Nick you raise yourself once again. One it's not my QM I did not invent it. From the looks of your lack of education I would have to say that you should follow your own advice.
Believe me Nick when you said "Where does the matter escape to if space is in the singularity." spoke volumes of your ignorance. You should just keep quite and at least try to understand the theories you claim are wrong!  |
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| Posted:
Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:02 am
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Moderator
Joined: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 274
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| Frankinstien wrote: |
| Nick wrote: |
If there's no space-time yet where will the matter escape to?
How does the primoridial egg divide?
How does a mindless lump create the universe?
If light was the orignal energy buildup at the Big Bang
your mass would be half matter and half antimatter
and it would all be in one place. Not possible.
Like I said you can't get the universe out of that! |
Nick we're running into that heap of what you call your brain. Matter and anti matter is exactly what QM predicts but as usual Nick your lack of education always leads you down that path of "dah no it's not!"
| Quote: |
You don't have any real answers frank.
I can see that.
May I point out to you it is better to know
that you don't know for sure than to go on
believing that you are "certain."
And your QM is fudge. |
Nick you raise yourself once again. One it's not my QM I did not invent it. From the looks of your lack of education I would have to say that you should follow your own advice.
Believe me Nick when you said "Where does the matter escape to if space is in the singularity." spoke volumes of your ignorance. You should just keep quite and at least try to understand the theories you claim are wrong! |
QM is not your theory yes but you choose to believe
in an interpretation. And you can't back it up.
You say QM predicts matter and antimatter but the singularity
has to be one or the other frank. You can't start the universe
out at one point with an indivisible mixture of matter and
antimatter. Only more light would come out!
Science is just begining. Come back in hundred thousand
years and tell me how competant science is.
How about a billion years from now?
You see it never ends.
People like Hawking thought that science would end in
a just about 20 years.
This is hubris.
About me being quiet?
You are no authority.
The more you make yourself the less you are. |
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| Posted:
Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:40 am
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Mentor
Joined: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 94
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| Nick wrote: |
You say QM predicts matter and antimatter but the singularityhas to be one or the other frank. You can't start the universe
out at one point with an indivisible mixture of matter and
antimatter. Only more light would come out! |
You see Nick you'll never get until you get an education. Photons have gravity so a singularity could be made up of only photons. Photons can transform into matter and anti-matter. So in an expansion you can have photons transforming into matter and anti-matter. In fact the current theories also conclude that the universe expanded as matter and antimatter in equal amounts but as QM predicts when both annihilate each other in such a massive process one type of matter ends up remaining.  You should do more reading Nick...really.  |
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| Posted:
Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:24 am
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Moderator
Joined: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 274
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Reading books can only take you so far.
After that something else must happen.
You think you have what you don't frank
and I'm calling you on it.
You talk about education? You got it backwards.
Einstein said: Education is what is left over
after you have forgotten everything you ever
learned in school.
Education dumbs people down. That is what I mean
when I say you have lost your common sense frank!
You've traded it in for the security of a sheepskin.
Most intellectuals, you included, are compensators
compensating for some inferiority by doing what they
think will make them superior.
So you make yourself smart.
I know that I am not smart. But I want to know what is!
It's a tribute to Einstein's genius that he could survive
his education to create a magnificence. |
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| Posted:
Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:41 am
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Moderator
Joined: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 274
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BTW I never said the Big Bang never happened.
It just didn't happen the way scientists claim.
If you believe in black holes; which I don't;
then you have to also believe that's what
the original singularity was. The Big Bang's
infinite gravity would prevent any expansion.
There are no black holes but there still is an
extreme of gravity.
I say that gravity doesn't begin infinite because
the original energy buildup at the Big Bang
created matter spread out. All that's required
to corrrect GR and the gravity at the Big Bang
is to recognise that gravity has to start out
with some finite strength.
And I'll tell you how. Mass was not singular
and neither are particles frank!
So Bose Einstein condensates are nonsingular.
No black holes from them.
As long as there is some space between
particles, right at the very begining, can
gravity remain finite.
A simple answer as to how the Big Bang really
happened:
There was no matter singularity.
A mindless lump is not the creator.
An energy buildup is what made matter
at the Big Bang frank. |
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