It was reported in the news today, 5 boys were killed in Vietnam when a US-made M-79 shell, left over from the Vietnam War. According to U.S military, 15 million tones of bombs, mines, artillery shells and other munitions were used during this war. Around 10% of these failed to explode and may claim lives still.
Talk about leaving a legacy for the generations to come
Those are indeed staggering stats. I think the weapons used in Afghanistan and Iraq are far more destructive than the Vietnam Was ammo. It will be an even more destructive legacy than the earlier one. Keeping in mind the allegations against the Coalition for using biological weapons it can end up being far more deadly.
Warfare nowadays is somewhat different to Vietnam.
For instance most of the worlds countries have outlawed using Mines thanks to the United Nations (Who in turn get alot of flak from the US)
Conflict tactics have changed to incourage precision attacks on targets as apposed to annhiliating everything. Also due to places like Vietnam and certain countries in Africa, better control over munitions is a part of the way conflicts/wars are fought, with the emphasis to not leave munitions laying around as they can both become ingredients in terrorist adhoc weaponry and can cost alot in eventual settlements over such cases as people losing limbs etc.
It is a pity that tracking devices can't be fitted to rounds, as if they were you could for one know where they landed, for another you could work out their destination and therefore develop the futility in war/conflict.
Weapons to the later part of last century were big business and that is seemingly not set to change just yet with the US development in Anti-Missile weaponry for space and notible fragments of information regarding certain world countries using Uranium enrichment processes that they deny about.
I just hope the world gets to the point of developing a system that utilises a matrix along with teleportation, so when a person fires a round off from a gun, the bullet can be teleported to a trajectory of shooting the person that fired it. Again proving futility in war and potentially encouraging worldwide ceasefires (peace?).
I agree totally to your point about futility of war. It takes one news bulletin a day to become completely indifferent to the miseries faced by people in war torn areas. The lines ‘x number of people were killed today, in the city of y’, repeated enough times, can result in the listener starting to take death of innocent people for granted! Soon you don’t even feel sad that it has happened…you become resigned to it, as if it was natural. But it is not. And if we stop to think once WHO was the person killed, and ask ourselves how that person is chosen, then maybe will be more active in condemning these brutal acts.
I don’t think that precision attacks mean PRECISION attacks at all. What is happening today has nothing to do with precision. The planes and tanks are bombing civilian areas the terrorists are blowing up civilian planes and busses and other places where there will be MASS KILLINGS. War has nothing to do with precision, and it has all to do with destruction. It chills me to think what wars of the future would be like when there will be even more destructive weapons to use on the masses!
My suggestion was based on the Modern Armies which are pressurised by the "Free world" to limit casualities, as apposed to the messy attacks by the "Terrorists" or "freedom fighters" who do not feel the peer pressure of the "Free world".
My definition of "Free world" is where people know their rights and will not tolerate abuse to the level of those countries that aren't "Free" and "Democratic".
Well, for once I was expecting an unbiased view but I guess that’s too rare these days. Firstly, I never talked of just the terrorists causing mass destruction, its something both the sides are pursuing without any second thoughts!
Had there been any pressure of the FREE WORLD as you call it, the Coalition would not have attacked a sovereign state. There could have been a political solution for Iraq, but an invasion was what the U.S Government wanted…having a colony to govern is flattering, that too, an oil producing one right?
Having said that, I won’t defend what happened to the Twin Towers, it was painful, not only for American people, but for others around the globe because whether you live in a FREE STATE (as you like to call it) or not yet, you remain a human with feelings and any sane human would never feel happy in loss of another. Neither do I defend the suicide attacks taking place so consistently around the world everyday. They have neither a base in Islam, nor in any other religion that I am aware of.
In the end I’d suggest a reading of some of the columns Robert Fisk, a known western reporter, wrote during the bombings of Iraq before VICTORY was declared by the Coalition forces. These will let you know of the PRECISION of the FREE WORLD armies. As far as I can see there is no precision in Daisy Cutters and other modern arms being used…they kill humans (civilians at that) and so do the labeled terrorists. Its our loss any way you take it, its humanity’s loss.
(I did not mean to make this a political policies discussion, instead what I meant was to highlight the futility of warfare on the whole. However, I am unable to resist your provocation, no hard feelings I hope )
Wars... well who have they ever benifited. The fact that so much infrastructure, logistics and man power is lost. And much more than that people loose their homes and loved ones. The loss of relations and family is something that can never be compunsated. It is so weird that the victorious side celebrates, where as even they have lost so much.
One can talk about U.S waging a war against Iraq, or the terrorism or any other form of violence, but they all are tendencies of human race that should be eradicated.
I wish we could develop some medicine to cure this disease of fighting amongst ourselves!!
All war is against freedom, peace and love.
All war is terrorism.
Wars of imperial expansion are fascist.
I would not presume to speak for the people who lose their lives in war. Their loss of life, however, speaks to me. Such tragedy is direct and undeniable proof of the atrocity of war.
That being said, war can not be eradicated. Greed is inherent to humanity, and murder is inherent to greed. To speak of eradicating war is pointless. All any individual can do to promote peace is to adopt a doctrine of peace on a personal level.
As for those shells in Veitnam, they're cupcakes compared to the depleted uranium shells we dropped all over Iraq in the first gulf war. Not only are those bad boys dense enough to penetrate most armor, they remain radioactive for decades. Most figures I have seen put the count at over 70 tons of the stuff in Iraq now, put there by the United States in a rather violent manner. I would consider that a conservative estimate. One source puts the amount of radiation given off by these collective munitions into perspective, stating that it is equal to 250,000 "Fat Boy" nuclear bomb detonations. Those are the things we used to melt a couple islands back in WW2, for those of you who weren't aware.
Now people are talking about an increasing trend of precision in state-endorsed mass murder? That's a laugh. Stabbing some Hun with a longsword is precise. Blowing people up and/or giving them radiation poisoning is quite to the contrary. If humanity lasts into the next century, one can only imagine the level of precision our homo(geno)cide might reach.
Einstein was a pacifist but he knew war has to be fought.
Better yet be bold enough and you will never need to.
Such is the likes of Ronald Reagan.
Einstein was a Zionist who was elevated by the support of the economically powerful Jewish groups to the level of an idol and a superstar. An idiot who abused his wife and stuck his tongue out to the news photographers. A paranoid who hated his homeland and his people at first then used them to climb to where he never belonged or deserved to belong.
War is barbaric and demonstrates the failure of civility and politics.
Cruelty is a psychotic reaction often found among abused children and never found among children loved by their parents. Heroism is a fallacy, while wise leadership is a daunting position. The fallacy of the Zulu was to sacrifice a thousand man to test the strength of their enemy rather than send a delegation to discuss territorial rights, and was founded on the absence of translators. What is our excuse today when we have the United Nations equipped with every sophisticated technology to guarantee that we understand each other? _________________ Hemetis
First off, Ronald Reagan was indirectly responsible for his own share of murder. He was also behind the invasion of Greneda, which you may or may not have been previously aware of.
now, Hemetis:
What did Einstein not deserve, his moderately paying university position or his place in the anals of theoretical physics? I never realized he was an idol per se, but he beats Tom Cruise, right? If you have a basis for a universal model that beats Einstein's, however, please explain it to us so we can throw decades of research in the trash and start anew in the glory of your belligerent posturing.
As you seem fond of the word fallacy, allow me to point out some fallacies in your argument.
Quote:
Cruelty is a psychotic reaction often found among abused children and never found among children loved by their parents.
If a child is loved by his or her parents, that child will entirely lack the ability to act in a cruel manner? That is, at best, a ridiculous statement made in willful ignorance of the human condition. My parents love me very much, and I can be quite cruel when need be.
Quote:
The fallacy of the Zulu was to sacrifice a thousand man to test the strength of their enemy rather than send a delegation to discuss territorial rights, and was founded on the absence of translators.
Was this truly a failure in reasoning? Men the Zulu had, moreso than resources to keep those men alive. Perhaps it was a failure in reasoning to have bred beyond the limits of their environment before technology allowed them to better exploit available resources, but that is another matter entirely.
Quote:
What is our excuse today when we have the United Nations equipped with every sophisticated technology to guarantee that we understand each other?
Sophistication implies complexity, and complexity is the bane of civility.
now, Hemetis:
What did Einstein not deserve, his moderately paying university position or his place in the anals of theoretical physics? I never realized he was an idol per se, but he beats Tom Cruise, right? If you have a basis for a universal model that beats Einstein's, however, please explain it to us so we can throw decades of research in the trash and start anew in the glory of your belligerent posturing.
Did Einstein deserve to be elevated to divinity such that his worshipers would feel irritated when he gets occasionally insulted for silly concepts that he promoted? Einstein was an ordinary man, and less than others on some issues. Indeed we have lived a century of entertainment, but enough is enough. We need no time travel or big-bangs or black-holes. We need no mad confused concepts to befuddle the engineers. Climbing on the shoulders of giants is one thing and stepping on the necks of friends is another.
shane wrote:
As you seem fond of the word fallacy, allow me to point out some fallacies in your argument.
You are allowed.
Quote:
Cruelty is a psychotic reaction often found among abused children and never found among children loved by their parents.
shane wrote:
If a child is loved by his or her parents, that child will entirely lack the ability to act in a cruel manner? That is, at best, a ridiculous statement made in willful ignorance of the human condition. My parents love me very much, and I can be quite cruel when need be.
How old are you!
Have you never felt abuse from society or even school mates?
You do not seem to know the definition of cruelty.
You say you can but would you, pick your friends eye with a sharp pencil?
How far can you take your alleged cruelty, let me know and I shall tell you if you were ever abused and hiding it in your subconscious. If you were never abused, then your best cruelty will by dishonesty on reply. _________________ Hemetis
Last edited by HEMETIS on Sat Jul 02, 2005 3:11 am; edited 2 times in total
Hemetis wrote:
How far can you take your alleged cruelty, let me know and I shall tell you if you were ever abused and hiding it in your subconscious. If you were never abused, then your best cruelty will by dishonesty on reply.
Well do you consider brain washing a form of abuse? People who have not been abused can be convinced to act out cruelly, especially if they are convinced they are faced with a life threatening issue.
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